African American scientists: Remembering E. E. Just

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00:00:15.10 SG: Hi, my name is Sarah Goodwin and I'm here with Dr. George Langford,
00:00:20.11 who is a professor at Syracuse University also dean of the College of Arts and Sciences.
00:00:25.29 And today he's going to tell us about his scientific career
00:00:29.10 and how he was influenced by E.E. Just.
00:00:32.23 What were some of E.E. Just's personal qualities that allowed him to succeed in science?
00:00:38.05 GL: Well, some of his personal qualities include that fact that
00:00:43.02 number one, he was a very bright individual,
00:00:47.09 but he was also persistent in pursuing his science.
00:00:53.05 He was determined to resist the kinds of discrimination that were being shown
00:01:06.08 toward African Americans and so in spite of his inability to get a position
00:01:14.27 at a major research university, he continued to pursue his science
00:01:19.06 and he found ways to do that both by coming to the Marine Biological Laboratory
00:01:24.11 but also by developing very strong collaborations
00:01:27.26 with scientists that would share information and provide feedback to him
00:01:33.19 as he developed his own scientific ideas.
00:01:36.18 It was an inspiring story because in spite of not being able to
00:01:42.16 actually get a position at a university where he could pursue his research
00:01:50.08 as a full-time research scientist, he continued to publish
00:01:54.19 and made extraordinary contributions. He was sort of part of what we think of as the Harlem Renaissance,
00:02:01.13 you know, the period when African Americans were having to demonstrate
00:02:09.12 that we could in fact make seminal contributions to science,
00:02:16.08 to literature, to art, to all of the, you know, the major disciplines
00:02:24.16 that had been, you know, unavailable to African Americans in the past.
00:02:31.25 So, he was one of the trailblazers, he was one of the first
00:02:35.16 to really both break the color line, to, you know, use his pursuit of science
00:02:42.05 as a way to show that African Americans could be, could contribute
00:02:51.11 to the scientific discipline.
00:02:53.22 SG: So, how has E.E. Just's life influenced your own scientific career?
00:02:58.26 GL: I felt fortunate that E.E. Just had come before me
00:03:03.02 because I didn't have to, I didn't have to deal with this issue
00:03:08.12 of whether African Americans could do first-quality science.
00:03:13.15 You know, that had already been demonstrated by Just
00:03:16.06 and so I could move on with my career, you know, without having that huge burden
00:03:21.22 on my shoulders.
00:03:23.00 So, I have really taken several strategies from the way in which E.E. Just was able to pursue his own science.
00:03:35.26 And one way was by working at the Marine Biological Laboratory
00:03:42.18 in the summers. The MBL is a unique place to work,
00:03:47.05 it's a place where it is much easier to establish collaborations and contacts
00:03:54.15 with scientists from not only the US, but around the world.
00:03:58.09 And that has been sort of the platform that I have used
00:04:02.26 to really become the scientist that I am
00:04:06.29 and I would say that my most important discoveries were made here
00:04:12.00 at the MBL as a summer investigator.
00:04:15.02 So, that has been a critical part of my own career
00:04:18.07 and, you know, it was something that I observed,
00:04:22.29 was the way Just was able to continue his research.
00:04:27.00 The other thing that I gathered from learning about the life of Earnest Just
00:04:34.15 is the fact that he relied upon collaborators from Europe.
00:04:39.11 And I found that that was also a very important part of my own experience.
00:04:46.22 It was much easier to develop collaborations and networking,
00:04:53.20 to get information about what was going on in the scientific field from my European colleagues
00:05:00.05 and so I have very strong ties with scientists from Germany,
00:05:06.13 from Italy, that I've worked with to develop my own scientific career.
00:05:11.25 And the third thing that I learned from Just was his use of mentors.
00:05:17.15 He was fortunate to have F.R. Lillie as a life-long mentor,
00:05:23.12 and I have also had the good fortune of having very, very good mentors.
00:05:30.15 Teru Hayashi from my graduate school, Shinya Inoue, my postdoctoral mentor,
00:05:37.10 and my MBL collaborator, Robert Allen,
00:05:41.18 all worked very, very, they were all very helpful in establishing,
00:05:49.10 helping me to both grow my own science, but also to help me with my own research,
00:06:00.16 both here at the MBL and back at my home institution.
00:06:05.11 SG: So, could you comment on, there still is a disparity
00:06:10.24 in the number of African Americans and other minorities in the scientific establishment now.
00:06:15.27 Could you comment on that?
00:06:16.28 GL: Yes, so it's really, I think everyone knows that in order for the US to remain competitive,
00:06:23.25 we've got to increase the number of individuals who are pursuing the STEM disciplines,
00:06:31.02 science, technology, engineering and mathematics.
00:06:33.23 And because of the changing demographics
00:06:36.18 I think right now, we know that the kids under 6,
00:06:42.20 the majority of them are the underrepresented minority groups.
00:06:46.26 And so, the demographics are changing,
00:06:49.20 we have got to find ways to increase the number of underrepresented minorities in the sciences
00:06:56.14 and even though we've made a lot of progress, the numbers are still very small.
00:07:02.25 I remain optimistic that we can improve the numbers,
00:07:08.08 but there are really has to be some major changes.
00:07:11.27 Racial bias still exists today and I think the scientific community has to be much more proactive
00:07:21.12 in understanding how racial bias exhibits itself
00:07:26.08 and how to really mitigate that problem.
00:07:29.15 There's also the problem of stereo-threat,
00:07:33.13 which is another issue that really compromises the ability of minority,
00:07:40.06 and it also applies to women, you know, in pursuing science.
00:07:44.07 Quite often when one is reminded of race,
00:07:49.20 in situations like when you're taking tests or when you're interacting with your white colleagues,
00:07:55.11 that compromises your ability to be your best,
00:07:59.12 you know, because it creates a threat
00:08:04.01 of whether you can perform at the same level or not.
00:08:08.10 So, that exists. And then, you know, we have, we need better advising,
00:08:15.10 we need advising for minority students and postdocs
00:08:19.12 that is culturally competent and we have to help mentors to understand
00:08:25.27 that they need to know how to provide the guidance that's really culturally relevant
00:08:31.09 to the individuals in the laboratory.
00:08:33.22 And if we can do that, I think we'll see that minority scientists,
00:08:39.09 that is the graduate students and postdocs who complete their degrees,
00:08:43.29 will have the same level of productivity as their white colleagues.
00:08:48.26 And so, those are the things that I see as real challenges
00:08:53.06 as we move forward in trying to increase the number of underrepresented minorities
00:08:58.22 in the STEM disciplines.
00:09:00.14 These are real things that we have to, you know, attack,
00:09:03.28 we just can't assume that it's going to resolve itself,
00:09:07.14 you know, and if institutions are not willing to really do that
00:09:11.24 then I think it's going to be a very slow process.
00:09:15.11 SG: Are there mentorship programs in place right now
00:09:19.16 to help minorities who are moving through the graduate student and postdoc track?
00:09:22.26 They are beginning to be developed.
00:09:25.25 I think both the NIH is interested in developing mentoring programs,
00:09:29.27 the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, the Burroughs Wellcome Fund,
00:09:34.14 I am currently on the board of the Burroughs Wellcome Fund,
00:09:38.09 and we are just beginning to put together a program,
00:09:42.23 a mentoring program, for underrepresented minority postdocs
00:09:47.11 and the idea there is to really help both the postdoc,
00:09:52.04 but also the mentor, understand how to better guide minority scientists
00:09:57.10 and to help them, both with their increasing publications,
00:10:03.10 but also networking within the scientific community.
00:10:06.25 SG: It seems like there also needs to be some more mentorship programs
00:10:11.03 at the younger age.
00:10:12.03 GL: We need to have at all levels, but what we found,
00:10:14.29 and when I was on the faculty at Dartmouth, for example,
00:10:18.04 what we found is if you ask students as they come into the institution,
00:10:25.26 what their interests are, we found that 50% of the white students
00:10:30.24 said they were interested in science,
00:10:32.12 and the same was true for the minority students as well.
00:10:36.11 So, they came into the university as an undergraduate
00:10:40.16 with an interest in science, but then if you look at the numbers who majored in the sciences,
00:10:45.18 there was a dramatic difference.
00:10:47.15 About 30% of whites majored in the sciences,
00:10:50.16 but only about 15% of the minority kids majored in science.
00:10:54.27 So, students have a strong interest,
00:10:58.09 but we haven't found ways to maintain that interest.
00:11:01.13 We really have to find better ways to provide content
00:11:11.17 to the intro level courses in the major sciences, in physics, in chemistry,
00:11:18.08 in biology, as well as in math,
00:11:20.10 because that's where you get a large number of students who drop out of the sciences
00:11:25.22 and there are much better ways now of presenting that material,
00:11:30.28 you know, with the kinds of smart devices that we all have
00:11:35.12 and that students are carrying around, I think there's a better way
00:11:38.19 to deliver content other than through the standard lecture or large-format classrooms.
00:11:45.21 SG: So, what are some mechanisms for becoming more culturally aware,
00:11:51.08 or educated?
00:11:52.11 GL: Well, I think, you know, we have to put up in workshops,
00:11:56.24 for example, I don't know if most scientists understand the idea of stereotype threat,
00:12:02.14 for example. It's a fairly simple concept,
00:12:06.17 but you have to be introduced to it and you have to be convinced
00:12:10.04 that it's real and that you are a participant in it, you know,
00:12:18.06 and then I think you can begin to develop strategies
00:12:22.12 to help students to get past it, for example.
00:12:26.05 And then, you know, they've done studies, like with physicians,
00:12:30.02 where, you know, if the patient is black versus white
00:12:36.16 what kinds of interventions are used,
00:12:38.26 and when physicians who are not, who would never consider themselves racist
00:12:45.02 are put in these situations, they prescribe less aggressive treatment for blacks than for whites
00:12:52.28 and so, there are those kinds of residual things that exist
00:12:56.05 that you are not even aware of, but you have to be exposed to this
00:13:02.06 so that you begin to understand that it isn't just the student,
00:13:07.13 it is really the faculty member who has, who's bringing issues
00:13:12.05 that make it more difficult for kids to be successful.
00:13:15.10 So, again, I think it's very important for mentors to understand this,
00:13:20.14 to be, I think the word is culturally competent,
00:13:24.11 to understand how they interact and how their actions can affect the activity of others
00:13:32.01 that they are advising in their laboratory.
00:13:34.12 So, it's a big issue, I think professional societies have a role to play in this,
00:13:40.24 I think again, the funding agencies can really help
00:13:45.18 by providing specific kinds of training workshops
00:13:50.14 that deal with these issues.
00:13:52.16 SG: So, how do you think that we as scientists can elevate the discourse
00:13:56.20 about increasing underrepresented minorities in science?
00:14:01.13 GL: Well, I think the one thing that we have to do
00:14:06.08 is somehow create a willingness on the part of scientists
00:14:13.13 to address these issues. I think scientists often think that
00:14:19.11 their interactions are not driven by, you know, sort of the soft activities,
00:14:35.03 the touchy-feely things, you know, we think of we are in our laboratories,
00:14:39.01 we're doing our science, and it doesn't matter who the individual is,
00:14:44.03 and we don't have to worry so much about the social setting of the laboratory.
00:14:49.02 And we really do, I mean, science is a social endeavor,
00:14:53.08 and so we have to really come to grips with the fact that even when you don't intend
00:15:00.27 to be, show a difference, that that does exist in the laboratory
00:15:07.21 and until people are willing to accept that as a real issue,
00:15:17.11 then it's going to be hard to do anything about it.

This Talk

Speaker: George Langford

Audience:

Educators of H. School / Intro Undergrad
Student
Educators of Adv. Undergrad / Grad
Researcher
Educators

Recorded: December 2012

Talk Overview

Langford describes how E. E. Just’s intelligence, persistence and innovative ways of pursuing his science allowed him to become a successful biologist in spite of the challenges faced by African American scientists in the early 1900s.

About the interviewer: After completing graduate school at UCSF, Sarah Goodwin became the Director of iBiology.org.

Speaker Bio

George Langford

Dr. Langford is Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences and a Professor of cell biology and neuroscience at Syracuse University. He is also a long-time MBL summer researcher. He has actively promoted diversity in science throughout his career; he was the first chair of the ASCB Minority Affairs Committee and the first recipient… Continue Reading